Curse

Kaida the Heartless · Apr 05, 2008, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Simply put, a ranger shouldn't have the ability to see another class use a weapon, pick up that same weapon, and then proceed to beat them over the head with it.

Tyla · Apr 05, 2008, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itokaru

snip

Bad skill design.

@Skyy High -- It's because it's so brainless and easy to use (Which I explained in page 3...). I'm not going to explain myself about why it's degenerate after this post. (And boring to play against.)

@AshenX -- Not only am I against that. Skill level should be there so idiots can't play as well as decent players. Do you know how old, boring and all that it is with Rangers with martial weapons? They do better with Bows, but martial weapons are overused on them in PvP now. (B + random HoH game, you will most probably see 2 R/D-ways vs. a balanced. Changes to Escape and RaO should screw up Scythe / Hammer Rangers. Expertise nerf is just the final nail to Scytherangers.)

Splitisoda · Apr 05, 2008, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

So what? Because the only thing I see is "expertise is useful, it makes Rangers versatile, QQ"

Really? So i guess rits arent versitile since they cant abuse their primary atribute for all other proffesions.

Kyrein · Apr 05, 2008, 12:50 PM // 12:50

this was fun at first but now it has DEGENERATED

tyla, what you think rangers should do has no sound reasoning behind it whatsoever and anet made the game that way, do you think they might have meant for us to be able to play that way?

it's called VERSATILITY and it is the trademark of a ranger

if you want to learn how to use a weapon, you go learn how to use the weapon, bang you can use that weapon

how is that DEGENERATE????

it's simple common sense

"ZOMG RANGERS ARE SUPPOSED TO USE BOWS ONLY NUBS OTHER WEAPONS ARENT FUN TO FIGHT AGAINST BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD WITH THEM" is not a good argument

Tyla · Apr 05, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyrein

snip

Versatility in the form of gimmicks. And stop being so ignorant. I've explained on page 3 why it's degenerate.

*grabs the post*
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...1&postcount=56 Enjoy.

"These builds are mainly skillless, as the people who play them. C-Space then mash the 12345678 keys."

N1ghtstalker · Apr 05, 2008, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyrein

this was fun at first but now it has DEGENERATED

tyla, what you think rangers should do has no sound reasoning behind it whatsoever and anet made the game that way, do you think they might have meant for us to be able to play that way?

it's called VERSATILITY and it is the trademark of a ranger

if you want to learn how to use a weapon, you go learn how to use the weapon, bang you can use that weapon

how is that DEGENERATE????

it's simple common sense

"ZOMG RANGERS ARE SUPPOSED TO USE BOWS ONLY NUBS OTHER WEAPONS ARENT FUN TO FIGHT AGAINST BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD WITH THEM" is not a good argument

² that
if all rangers use bows and all casters use staffs and all sins use daggers and all wars use only war weapons things will get boring
if ppl combine smart their builds with other kinds of weapons we get a huge source of combinations and things won't get boring, why? because we can use other stuff 'n builds
i think i'll go make a spearsin now brb lol

Kyrein · Apr 05, 2008, 12:59 PM // 12:59

you are making absolutely no effort to defend your position, you fail to understand what i am saying and you keep repeating yourself

Tyla · Apr 05, 2008, 01:03 PM // 13:03

LMAO!
I've just explained why it's degenerate.
And versatility as in being able to take on many tasks at once. Look at the common Cripshot bar. Defensive and offensive capabilities that can also split. THAT is the versatility that a Ranger should use, not degenerate crap I've had to explain about over and over and....

Stop posting Kyrein, you've got it worse.

Kyrein · Apr 05, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

lol

versatility: the ability to adapt to a situation

once again your argument is

"OMG RANGERS ARE ONLY SUPPOSED TO USE BOWS"

last time i checked, versatility was not a bow skill

however, if you find it on wiki somewhere let me know

Tyla · Apr 05, 2008, 01:09 PM // 13:09

I used the Cripshot bar as an example. The Cripshot bar is infact the most versatile bar that a Ranger can use. R/*martial* isn't versatile, it's a 1-dimensional, buttonmashing piece of shit. There is no way that they can't be.

Axagoth Baal · Apr 05, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

I think they should increase the energy reduction of ranger skills like bow attacks and decrease skills cost reduction from other professions. Too many spear-rangers (i also use them) and no bow-rangers, simply because these can't afford energy cost from both bow skills and beasmaster skills

Pyro maniac · Apr 05, 2008, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Simply put, a ranger shouldn't have the ability to see another class use a weapon, pick up that same weapon, and then proceed to beat them over the head with it.

Sure, nothing wrong with that. However in most cases you have to devote your entire bar to do one thing, (r/d are just mashing attacks with a perma-block on them for example). THAT is wrong. In theory they should be able to use secondaries extensively, it just doesn't work out in pretty much all the cases.

@Kyrien, please stop.
Versatility in the amount of useable bars isn't always a good thing, pretty much all the PvP'ers do believe that the meta was much better with just prophecies or at the start of factions. With the amount of powerful skills available at the moment, it is too hard to balance. Cutting down some brainless builds is a good start.
Versatility in a bar is a good thing however, this is what Tyla is saying however you are failing to see. Versatility in a bar allows more options at a given time, choosing the best one out of those options is skilful play. Cripshot bar is a very good example, it allows someone to skirmish, snare the frontline to relieve pressure, snare the backline to add pressure to them, interupting key skills, spreading poison etc. That is very wanted in a good metagame.
The more brainless templates only allow you to do one thing, thus you are always doing the same thing and can't fail in choosing the right option.

Expertise with secondary usage isn't a bad thing per definition. It is just that all templates created by that idea have been bad for the game.

Trylo · Apr 05, 2008, 02:02 PM // 14:02

R/W - Aura of Stability to victory!

R/D - any of the other numerous melee shutdowns you should have. i mean escape doesnt even give an IAS, uses their elite, and only helps their own dodge chance. i just dont understand how it has gotten as far as it has, it really doesnt seem like a good build. why even go ranger primary... at least you get wounding strike as a derv

R/Rt - oath shot spirit spammer please keep theyre hilarious!

R/A - i never understood why going ranger primary was better... yay +30 vs elements? i guess

R/P - funny. at least pets are viable. (has anyone ever done an enraged lunge spike? now that you can target it might work :P)

R/N - i congratulate people who can press 1-2 and the occasional OoB and not get bored out of their minds.

well... my point being i dont see why expertise is so detrimental to the game. its no where near as poorly constructed as soul reaping/leadership. although it does have some hax e-management, rangers need it, and making them waste attribute points for it is the consequence.
are there any skills useful linked to expertise? glass arrows? thats it. d-shot doesnt benefit from expertise. practiced stance/CG has dissapeared (i thought it was a funny build..too bad..)

i have still yet to see a coherent point as to why r/d are killing the meta. i had seen many before the explosion of them in HA, and they werent good then and i dont see how they can be good now.

give real points please.

edit: rangers need expertise to work other weapons primarily because bow attacks just fail. quite a lot.

[M]agna_[C]arta · Apr 05, 2008, 02:14 PM // 14:14

I actually want for all the Profs to be Versatile too.

Tyla · Apr 05, 2008, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Trylo, read arround. You'll see that people know these builds allow degenerate play.
And yeah Rangers need Expertise, but anyone who's good at Ranger wouldn't be half-arsed about an Expertise nerf hitting people manipulating their secondary on a Ranger as if it was their first profession.

@Magna -- It's more 1-dimensional than anything else. Again.

shru · Apr 05, 2008, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Once again, I say. It's the fact it's degenerate. Degenerate builds should be degenerated.

There's your worldy explination that even you told us to refer to that explained how they were "degenerate".....

Tyla · Apr 05, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

There's your worldy explination that even you told us to refer to that explained how they were "degenerate".....

Stop being so ignorant and read that post I directed people to in my earlier posts on page 3.

"These builds are mainly skillless, as the people who play them. C-Space then mash the 12345678 keys."

Pyro maniac · Apr 05, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

There's your worldy explination that even you told us to refer to that explained how they were "degenerate".....

Attacking some one on their expressions because you haven't got good arguments is pretty fail. (and actually degenerate is the good word here, just 'a bit' overused). Please say something useful or gtfo.

shru · Apr 05, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

Attacking some one on their expressions because you haven't got good arguments is pretty fail. (and actually degenerate is the good word here, just 'a bit' overused).

I'm attacking someone on their expressions because it's the only support they've given to their reasoning. If you went to any reasonable practise and presented your thesis with only opinions to support it, how seriously would you be taken? Tyla has told us nothing on why these builds are degenerate other tham that they don't fit his ideal on what a ranger should play. Saying that a build is mindless button mashing is extremely vauge and provides no actual insight into why expertise should be nerfed. If you have an opinion, that's fine, but don't state it as a fact inless you have the evidence to support it.

If you're not here to give an actual "reasoned" arguement, I'd take your words to heart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

Please say something useful or gtfo.

N1ghtstalker · Apr 05, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

still waiting for someone to tell me to stop playing critical cruel spear lol